1850 - GT List - Revamp

[calypso2ts]

After the last two tournaments I realized I need to make some changes to my GT list. I had a made a few assumptions for that list that include: the continued prevalence of Aegis Lines and a larger number of psykers. In fact, this month I only faced 1 Psyker, and in the last 6 games I have not seen any Aegis lines. In only 2 games did my opponent have a 5+ save or worse. Further some of the functionality I hoped to see just did not emerge.

Skull Cannons are cheap, but they are almost guaranteed dead with a penetrating hit it seems. Also, I always want to shoot the cannon at a Transport or other harder target for the S8, but I want to use them to provide grenades. Unfortunately, casualties from the Cannon can remove the unit from charge distance and for the most part it is a waste to shoot the unit since the charge is going to kill it anyway.

I also was really hurt by my lack of AP2 weapons - I have the Daemonettes and Seekers, but at T3 they tend to go down fairly quickly and not be where I need them. All of this considered, I am looking at the following modified list (which also ditches Fateweaver, do not get me wrong Fate is a beast but I just hate investing so much in one model that has no CC ability and can be ID by S10).

HQ
Herald of Khorne on Juggurnaut w/ Locus of Fury, Lesser Gift (Axe)
Herald of Khorne on Juggurnaut w/ Locus of Fury, Lesser Gift (Axe)

Elites
-

Troops
18x Daemonettes
10x Plague Bearers
10x Horrors

Fast Attack
18x Seekers w/ Icon
16x Flesh Hounds
16x Flesh Hounds

Heavy Support
Soul Grinder of Slaanesh w/ Baleful Torrent
Soul Grinder of Slaanesh w/ Baleful Torrent

Fortification
Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay

My thought is I can use the Aegis at midfield to generate 4+/3+ cover for the hounds depending on Night Fight. The 2x Grinders, Daemonettes and Seekers all go in reserve and then overload one side using the Comms relay to come in Turn 2. Another option is to lose the Soul Grinders for another Troop unit (Horrors/Daemonettes?) and/or a Greater Daemon (Keeper of Secrets w/ ML 2 and 2x Greater.

I know I have very little anti-air but that is just a flaw in the Daemon codex unless you take a FMC - all of which are just too expensive for my tastes.

Any thoughts?

[hyv3mynd]

I like this list a lot.

But...

1. I always favor a practiced list over a "better" list without any practice time. The new list may be good, but will you be comfortable enough to play it properly within the time limits?

2. The MG meta isn't even close to what DaBoyz GT will bring. There wasn't a single marine list, bikes, grav guns, or centurions present. The most recent large scale GT's are claiming 50%+ Tau/Eldar/Taudar combo lists. The Tau and Eldar lists represented at MG aren't even close to what will be at the GT. This list may be a great counter to Tau double riptide or 3 (with O'vesa), but I would be hesitant to make such radical changes based on the MG meta.

3. So you have 2 autocannons, 2 flamers, and 10 horrors for shooting. Are you comfortable with that? What do you do about land raiders? I know you're a very good player, but being around since 5th, I think you know what happens when you rely on assault to open transports.

4. Fateweaver - He's just that good. With him, you turn the warp storm from a potential liability into a weapon. You've also dropped the grimoire so most of the time your guys just have the 5++. Remember wave serpents are the most popular vehicle right now and people will often bring 4 due to the DT limit, so they won't care about your ADL.

5. Painting? How many dogs do you have and how many can you get done in 5 weeks? Don't underestimate painting scores in the overall track. Look at the results from this month's event:
Aaron S 126/96/16/16
Dave K 97/80/15/2
Scott 95/79/15/1
Paul 92/50/18/24 award sports/painting
Craig 85/61/15/9

Painting can effectively turn a loss into a win at the GT (or a draw-> in the 3 game format). If you can focus on what you've started... even 5-10 more painting points can be a huge bonus.

Anyways, that's enough to mull over. Go with your gut, and whatever will be the most fun for you.

[chaoscraig]

I don't think there is a soul grinder type that competes with nurgle. in night fight your looking at a 3+? amazing survivability.

One thing I have to warn you about the defence line is that it can be deceivingly hard to get the 4+ save. a little elevation over distance erases the cover save with a well thought out focus fire.

Ive found so far that 10 horrors tend to be useless but Im not really a daemons player. But I do believe aaron pegged it with fateweaver, FMC turning a potential weakness into a semi-reliable weapon and harassing flyers while striking absoulute terror into your opponents(not to mention your stunning model helping the paint score) is a must.

[calypso2ts]

Thanks for the feedback, there are some really good points here.

10 Horrors do tend to be useless, unless they roll Bolt and then they get a S4 + d6 AP 2 beam to shoot. Otherwise they sit on objectives and go to ground. I would rather run plagues, but I do not think I can get enough painted and based.

Fate is a way to deal with flyers and provide some buffs plus control the Warp Storm table. Not to mention I have played 3 tournaments with her so I am pretty comfortable in her use. Going to an army without that flexibility with limited practice time would be difficult.

I thought a lot about these comments and what I was really missing - and it felt like I was running out of gas in games, plus the Cannons were not doing the damage I wanted. I think the solution to those problems is partially to remove the Fiends - I want to make them work, but they just suck so badly in CC it is almost impossible.

The cost of the Fiends is another unit of hounds, which gives me a lot of CC punch in those two units plus some Rending from the Seekers. This is similar to the Fiends/Crushers/Screamer trifecta I used to run.

I want some large blasts - these are what keep opponents spread out and make it easier for me to concentrate my assaults - so that will be 2 grinders. As Ordinance they have a much better chance to penetrate armor than the cannons and it might cause some Eldar not to pop their Serpent Shield.

To make room that means no second Herald of Khorne or Aegis, but I think I like where this is going now.

HQ
Kairos
Herald of Khorne on Juggurnaut w/ Exalted, Locus of Wrath

Elites
-

Troops
10x Plaguebearers
10x Horrors
16x Daemonettes
Weakest part of the list but Reserves can help, I wish I could squeeze in one more troop choice

Fast Attack
16x Seekers
16x Flesh Hounds
16x Flesh Hounds

Heavy Support
Soul Grinder of Nurgle w/ Phlegm
Soul Grinder of Nurgle w/ Phlegm

No tricks like the last list, just durable units (except the troops) with the Grinders able to babysit them as needed. The Grinders can also advances up the field and with Shrouded they will get 3+ cover quite often. A neat trick that most do not realize is that Nurgle units get +1 cover for enemies shooting within 8". That means that any cover against Melta range shots will be 2+.

I miss the Flamers I used this week - they were awesome in all 3 games, but I think this list is stronger overall and the only place to cut is the Khorne Herald on the Grimoire or Fate. A really aggressive future list may lose Fate for Flamers and another Khorne Herald...but for now I think this is what I will be running.

Thoughts? I know it has less ignores cover - but one thing I did notice is that assault armies care a bit less about cover anyway.

[sinistermind]

Much better than the list at the top IMO. Played against a nurgle grinder in Erie with my gt list and if you can get it obscured by a building it becomes crazy durable with av13 4hp and awesome cover and like you said S8 ordnance is something for things like serpents to consider

[hyv3mynd]

That's prolly your best list to date. I think you'll destroy most tau, eldar, and bike builds. My only concern would be finishing games. You're gonna have turn 1-2 assaults every game and you have a lot of bodies. You need to play fast enough to finish your games because eldar, tau, and bikes will steal wins from you if you hit a hard time limit.

I say to with it. How much additional painting does this add?

[calypso2ts]

I have to do 16 hounds and that is it. The nice thing is the Chaos Warhounds model is pretty straightforward - I did my first 17 in about a week. I am also almost done with the Seekers - at which point I can base and add additional details.

[chaoscraig]

I like it and it seems that you wont have a problem painting it. Those grinders will be money for you I think.

[koszkamade]

I'm a huge fan of amassing bodies in the troops section. I'm surprised you're riding into battle with such fragile scoring units. I find that 20 horrors with a tzentch herald (lvl3 + locus) is a formidable unit for hunting down infantry and light vehicles. 3d6 +2d6 ( probably going to cast at least prescience) str6 ap4 shots is ridiculous. Not to mention herald has precision shot and you have soulblaze to boot!

Usually that squad gets a lot attention from your opponent, but with 32 hounds breathing down their neck they'll probably get less heat.

[calypso2ts]

Oct 20, 2013 12:01:43 GMT -5 koszkamade said:

I'm a huge fan of amassing bodies in the troops section. I'm surprised you're riding into battle with such fragile scoring units. I find that 20 horrors with a tzentch herald (lvl3 + locus) is a formidable unit for hunting down infantry and light vehicles. 3d6 +2d6 ( probably going to cast at least prescience) str6 ap4 shots is ridiculous. Not to mention herald has precision shot and you have soulblaze to boot!

Usually that squad gets a lot attention from your opponent, but with 32 hounds breathing down their neck they'll probably get less heat.

Not that this is a good metric, but I have not had an issue yet with being so troop light - that might change naturally - but reserves and the assault elements seem to keep them out of the firefight. In 5th I actually ran 19 Horrors and 7 plagues for all my troops - but that army was more about tabling opponents than this one. For a lot of the missions at the GT either Fast Attack or Heavy Support will score too, so there are actually more than it seems.

I agree though on the troop front - the sad reality is I have about 48 more Daemonettes waiting to be painted - and when they are done I plan to try out a 'Daemon Horde' style list with a lot of wounds on the table.

[Splyc]

I don't know to much about the demon codex but I know fate weaver is a good part of it. Having a good chance of a 4++ is invaluable, also aren't all demons fearless? How can they go to ground? To my knowledge fearless units cannot go to ground.

[calypso2ts]

Oct 20, 2013 21:23:20 GMT -5 Splyc said:

I don't know to much about the demon codex but I know fate weaver is a good part of it. Having a good chance of a 4++ is invaluable, also aren't all demons fearless? How can they go to ground? To my knowledge fearless units cannot go to ground.

Daemons are not fearless - they have Daemonic Instability. That means they automatically pass all Fear, Pinning, and Morale tests. In close combat they roll leadership, take wounds equal to the amount failed. That means powers like Terrify do not matter for them and they can actually go to ground.

Fate generates 1 power from Divination - Forewarning is good, but a Tzeentch Herald is a better source to try for those powers. Where Fate really shines is his 1 reroll can weaponize the warp storm in a scary way and makes the grimoire much more reliable. He can also skyfire 4d6 S5 AP 4, BS 5 shots which is a nice bonus and has the potential for a Ap 1 s 4+d6 large blast.

[cilithan]

Hey Calypso,



I like this list over the previous one I must say. I understand the doubt conserning the troops department, although I can testify that in my 1850 points list

Fateweaver

HoK, Jugger, ER, LR

HoT, Disc, ML3, ER

CSM Sorc, Bike, ML3, MB

18 Daemonettes

10 Pink Horrors

10 Cultists

11 Flesh Hounds

7 Screamers

5 Spawn, MoN

Maulerfiends

Soul Grinder, MoT, Gaze

I haven't had problems that stem from too few troops either. A list like this puts great pressure on the opponent, who often can't afford to skip the big threats and focus on the troops. That said, my list does have an additional Exalted Reward, mostly portalglyph, as a means to add more flexibility in regards to scoring objectives.



Also, I'd say that your list could greatly benefit from additional Mastery Levels. Would you consider a ML3 HoS with ER to accompany the Steeds? In my experience, Invisibility, Puppet Master, Psychic Shriek and Terrify could all greatly synergise with a list like this. I understand of course that you'd have to erase some hounds which is meh...



Two small points:

- How are Plaguebearers for you? In my experience the fact that they can't run has proven a dealbreaker many times. It makes them much less able to react to developments on the battlefield.

- You mention Fateweaver has acces to a large blast psychic power? Which one is it, I must be misreading/overlooking one of them?



Anxtiously awaiting your battlereports. Thanks for you blog.



Cilithan

[calypso2ts]

I love the CSM additions to the list you are running - painting is my really only obstacle to including some CSM with my list.

When it comes to running a Telepathy Psyker, I think the best way to do so is with an allied Sorcerer. He comes in at around ~115 points the way I usually run him - ML3, Spell Familiar and that is it - and provides some cheap scoring cultists to go in the army as well.

I am a bit loathe to lose more wounds on assault units - it is really tough to keep them potent enough to keep on trucking with the amount of firepower that most armies can put out now. When I played Daemons in 5th ed, it was all about the gambles on waves and deep strikes. I think this codex will eventually be about gambles on the warp storm and grimoire (that eliminate fateweaver thing). Even with some of the worst results - there is a 1/3 chance of a way to mitigate it through Lord Of Unreality and Immortal Commander traits.

I have always found plagues to be obnoxiously slow - but with how inept Horrors are they are my only option at the moment. I also wish I had something that could defend itself - or at least threaten something and the Horrors never seem to deliver in a meaningful way. At least 10 poison attacks and Touch of Rust can occasionally take down something interesting. Or just sit on an objective in the backfield all game long.

I misspoke(typed) on Fates power, it is just a Blast for Infernal Gateway - I was conflating it with the Skull Cannon!

I am going to try to get a report up this week, thanks for the feedback it is great to hear when your work is appreciated!

ASIDE: On Heralds - I think that heralds with their psychic powers and leadership 8 are really flawed from a costing perspective. They have potential game breaking abilities like Hallucinate, Puppet Master and Invisibility. However, their inconsistency means a Daemon player in an already 'swingy' codex is becoming even more erratic.

Because of how powerful these abilities can be, they are costed at 25 points a roll, but because of how errative they are they are over costed. There is no real way to remedy this because of the on/off nature of powers. So what you get is a unit that might get wiped in one turn when failing to cast its powers and never have a chance to 'even out' or a unit that annihilates the enemy and the later failures have no effect.

My solution would be a way to overcharge them and cast them on leadership 8 or 10 similar to fantasy. That makes for some interesting tactical decisions and risks too.