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Post by hyv3mynd on Nov 1, 2014 12:40:16 GMT -5
This topic will serve as a continued discussion based on off topic responses that began to hijack Nogle's GT thread here: thegrandstrategery.proboards.com/thread/438/decide-on-army-2-daysThe premise is: Local (mainly Rochester - Millennium) tournaments have been dying due to lack of player support and attendance. Echos have been heard from the Buffalo crew, with the Syracuse PTGRTS GT also hurting. I mentioned the annual player's meeting Travis used to host at Millennium, but there's no reason we can't continue the discussion and bounce ideas around here. Here's what we are and aren't looking for: Please participate with: Tournament formats, league concepts, format requests, and general constructive input relating to improving player attendance and community participation. Please avoid: Attacking someone's ideas in non-constructive ways. We realize every tournament format won't appeal to everyone, but to build the community back up, we'll all need to start attending and supporting events even if it's not our first choice in format.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Nov 1, 2014 12:52:53 GMT -5
Here's my approach/view towards local events. I know I cannot force people to think the same way, but please consider this with an open mind in the best interest of the WNY scene.
I try to make it to any event that's been advertized here, regardless of the format. Yes, I've never been to Erie or Two Kings. That's a direct result of having to work every Saturday, so when I can only typically take one Saturday off per month, the Millennium event makes the most sense for me. When Boldos used to host Sunday Tournaments, I attended every one that was advertized on DaBoyz forum.
This also means that while I personally dislike forgeworld books/units/models and many forms of comp, I still attend events that feature these things. This is because I personally would love to see support for local events rather than "boycott" the ones who's format I don't like.
7th ed is unique in that it's the most "open" of any edition yet. Codexes, supplements, allies, formations, fortifications, and forgeworld; they're all supposed to be legal now if you follow what GW wants us to do. For some hobbyists, this is great because they get to use models that they paid a lot to sit on the shelf. For some hobbyists, the change leads to fear of what they might face, should someone abuse the open format to create a dick-punching list that's no fun to play against. The result: more and more people are choosing to stay home in protest of a format they don't agree with in fear of facing something they deem too stong/abusive/unfluffy.
Basically, I feel the first step is to get folks to commit to attending their local monthly events again regardless of format.
Next is developing formats that will excite people.
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Post by Carlos Danger on Nov 1, 2014 12:54:15 GMT -5
The only thing we need to do is stop banning stuff because we don't have it or like it . People buy stuff they want to play with and we deny them the right to because we don't like it. GW has tried to get us to use and allow everything but we say no . Adepticon has pretty much opened the flood gates with there preliminary singles rules allowing me to use my war hound in the 40k championships . The community is not dying because of anything other then disorganization and alienating players who don't want to paint and who want to use all there stuff . If it were up to me I would reformat the whole thing allow everything with some slight mods like only 1 primary 1 super heavy or gargantuan and only 2 sources with stronghold not counting twords the 2 . This comming year we should throw the whole gambit wide open let it go for the year and see what happens . This may encourage sales of not only GW models but forgeworld as we'll . Also daboyz have drastically dropped in local appearance to monthly events maybe it's time to pass the event on the madulian who is the clear Rochester community club while daboyz are the Rochester national club .
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Post by Carlos Danger on Nov 1, 2014 13:09:02 GMT -5
Aaron to respond to your 2nd post . When I started going to adepticon my favorite event was the gladiator it allowed almost everything . And I used my war hound with soo much glee then my war hound died to the dumbest stuff like logen grimnar in a drop pod with multi-melta relentless long fangs . I lost to regular build army's with no forgeworld models . Now I know this is me were talking about and I'm bad at 40k to begin with but when it was all said and done with over 100 players and all the list nonsense what won that event every time a well balanced regular 40k list . Even the guys with what in my opinion was the most broken of all models the heraphant could not win it all it's fear of the unknown that kills this game when we should allow it all and adapt and change as we go . It will never be perfect and it will never please everyone but it will work.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Nov 1, 2014 13:33:55 GMT -5
So there's been a lot of talk of format due to the open nature of 7th and what people want to play.
B&WB was highly successful in part due to their format. 1250pts, 2 sources max, opponent scored comp. I think many liked this because it's different than the typical 1850/book mission format. The table size was refreshing, the games went faster, and lower points costs limited abusive builds.
Something that I loved was the painting/escalation league that promoted painting, started with small armies, and built over 6 months to a climax event. I'd love to see this done again, even if I cannot personally make it out often due to my family issues right now.
Highlander/Courtney Comp - I actually like this system and think it would work best when opening the flood gate of forgeworld/30k. I personally feel less pressure to build really tough lists when I have an assurance that nobody will have 3 knights, 3 riptides, 3 wraithknights, 6 wave serpents, etc. I'm ok with forgeworld stuff as long as people are using actual forgeworld models, have the actual current rules with them, and they're 0-1. My poo-pooing of forgeworld is that loose proxies are tolerated and I've faced several opponents now that didn't bring their rules in writing.
Conquest campaign ~ Another version of the painting/escalation league but with maps, resources, and results tracking showing players/teams accumulating territory or resources. Ben, Andy and I bounced this around for a bit but it never came to fruition.
Building the community ~ We've taken heavy losses from many sources: drama about the exodus from DaBoyz, GW dropping ardboyz and independent prize support, disillusionment based on the current meta etc.
However, Buffalo is showing promising growth and we've wrangled some new blood from the RIT campus in Garner, Alden, etc. I think we need to somehow get more of the college crowd coming out to open play nights and 2nd Saturday events. They key here is to keep adding new faces to the group to counter the veterans who are retiring.
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Post by nogle on Nov 1, 2014 13:38:18 GMT -5
FW and even digital stuff shouldn't be something to be afraid of. But I do think it's the players responsibility to make sure their opponent knows what's going on. part of that is providing army lists. When I play 30k I have a section on the bottom of my list that outlines changes. When someone else gives me a list(that I can keep) I write on it "this special character has a str 6 flamer, etc...." handing me your cellphone or a hand written piece of paper is not cool. I can't be the only loser that starts writing lists as soon as I know what the format is(month+ ahead of time)
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Post by nogle on Nov 1, 2014 13:40:34 GMT -5
When is gaming night at RIT? I would drive out to play a game at the school. get people looking, used to go to school there I like visiting.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Nov 1, 2014 13:45:38 GMT -5
The only thing we need to do is stop banning stuff because we don't have it or like it . People buy stuff they want to play with and we deny them the right to because we don't like it. GW has tried to get us to use and allow everything but we say no . Adepticon has pretty much opened the flood gates with there preliminary singles rules allowing me to use my war hound in the 40k championships . The community is not dying because of anything other then disorganization and alienating players who don't want to paint and who want to use all there stuff . If it were up to me I would reformat the whole thing allow everything with some slight mods like only 1 primary 1 super heavy or gargantuan and only 2 sources with stronghold not counting twords the 2 . This comming year we should throw the whole gambit wide open let it go for the year and see what happens . This may encourage sales of not only GW models but forgeworld as we'll . Also daboyz have drastically dropped in local appearance to monthly events maybe it's time to pass the event on the madulian who is the clear Rochester community club while daboyz are the Rochester national club . I'm not sure the "only" thing we need to do is stop banning stuff, but it might excite more people to come out. What we need to hear from the player base is actual feedback and get a commitment here. If we stop banning "stuff", who and how many more people will start showing up to events? Yes, DaBoyz have basically disappeared except for Courtney and Shaun at some venues. Smitty has been stuck in permanent TO role and Andy pledges allegiance to two clubs. However, DaBoyz still holds seniority and capitol superiority in the form of purchasing power and a larger supply of tournament terrain. There's still a lot of brand recognition and loyalty with DaBoyz also. What I want more than anything, is to get back to a point like we had in 2010 with 24+ players every second Saturday at Millennium. I know there's other hobby shops with Boldos and Pair A Dice, but Millennium has the most space available, best terrain pool, and most experienced TO's IMO. I haven't had anyone over to the hyv3-cav3 for fun games in 12 months now, so tournaments are where I get my games in. At this point, I'll put aside all of my personal preferences on format and comp, if it will help us develop formats and events that start bringing out lots of players again.
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Post by koszkamade on Nov 1, 2014 13:53:57 GMT -5
I really want to see the inclusion of FW, LoW and 30k into the monthly events.
I think the increased variety would rekindle some people's interest in their army. Maybe people are getting beat each month by the same list. It would be interesting to see the inclusion of these other qualities so that people may have new responses to lists that had given them trouble in the past.
I use these monthly events as a way to help progress my army ( painting / modeling), as well as try out new builds, units, etc. There are times when I notice some people taking the same list to every event. It would be great to see more people spurred on the try new things. Some players may be getting bored due to the stagnation of their games.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Nov 1, 2014 14:02:03 GMT -5
I really want to see the inclusion of FW, LoW and 30k into the monthly events. I think the increased variety would rekindle some people's interest in their army. Maybe people are getting beat each month by the same list. It would be interesting to see the inclusion of these other qualities so that people may have new responses to lists that had given them trouble in the past. I use these monthly events as a way to help progress my army ( painting / modeling), as well as try out new builds, units, etc. There are times when I notice some people taking the same list to every event. It would be great to see more people spurred on the try new things. Some players may be getting bored due to the stagnation of their games. I don't get out to the buffalo events, but I don't think I've seen the same army twice this year in Rochester. I know the TGS guys especially change their list every single event/month. Edit: MG events typically differ every single month, so continuing to alter points/comp format every month should make it impossible to "take the same list to every event". I think FW and 30k are an easy sell to include at this point. LoW not so much as people have seen online what a single transcendant c'tan or revenant titan can do. Like I said tho, I'm willing to put aside my personal preferences if we can get more people to attend. I'm not discounting Bill, Nogle, or Koszka, but you guys support us almost every month even without FW/LoW. We need to get new blood and faces, and get retired/disillusioned players out again. I'd like to see some evidence that allowing current "regulars" to use LoW's is going to encourage new players to join us.
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Post by nogle on Nov 1, 2014 14:56:18 GMT -5
I would think for them, there is a feeling that the game is getting away from them. so much stuff coming out so fast, I can't keep up. I've heard people say they don't know what's allowed with all the different sources (FW, dataslates, white dwarf, digital....etc).
I just saw that Adepticon is doing a "classic" tourney next year. one source only. It would be cool to get categories: Classic, Unbound, Courtney, Highlander....etc. then you post march- 1500 classic and there's a place where you can see what's allowed.
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Post by hyv3mynd on Nov 1, 2014 15:39:20 GMT -5
I love the idea of having defined formats and rotating points levels. Say we had classic 1 source, GW battle forged, true unbound, and highlander comp. If we rotated those 4 and played each at 1250, 1500, and 1850, that's enough for 12 months without anyone dominating month after month with the same army.
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Post by sinistermind on Nov 1, 2014 18:05:41 GMT -5
This year I will make it to more monthly tournaments. Going to Saturday schedule at work makes it hard(still hoping I can go back to 3rd shift asap) but after the 1st of the year I get a decent amount of days off which I can use.
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Post by dudeisuck on Nov 2, 2014 20:55:54 GMT -5
We can't get people from the college on open play night because that is also RWAG meeting time. Lots of people don't have rides to Millenium, etc. I pretty much run the Warhammer stuff at RWAG, so I can't leave that. A bunch of the college kids I talk to left their armies at home or it is too expensive now, or many other reasons. The extent of the guys who will be playing 40k from RIT are me, Alden, and Greg.
We should just get some spread on events. get a nice mix of things, some allow everything, some highlander, some smaller point games, a good mix to draw people in. Even if we can get an escalation league up and going in each of the major cities, that would be a great start.
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Post by nogle on Nov 2, 2014 22:26:56 GMT -5
Are RWAG meetings open to public? I was a member back when I went there (96-98). what night are they?
If people see two fully painted armies play on great terrain, it might be that spark needed to bring armies back after next trip home. I'd drive in from Buffalo for that.
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